Hello all:
I just finished reading Kingdom Come by John Mark Hicks and Bobby Valentine.
It took me a while because I’ve been really busy with work. The book itself is an easy read and is a fascinating look into the beliefs and eschatology of our forgotten past.
Bobby commented a while back that he’d like to know what I think about pacifism and religous nationalism after reading the book.
Between the lecture they gave at Pepperdine, the book, and reading some blog posts by Travis and Greg, I’ve been thinking alot about these subjects.
And I’ve changed my mind.
I grew up in a very patriotic family. My grandfather wasn’t just an elder, he was also a soldier. I grew up reading the Constitution, Decleration of Independence and the Monroe Doctrine. I read those documents more than my bible. I persued a career working in government.
But now I’d have to say that I agree more with Lipscomb’s thoughts on government. If I remember correctly from the book, Lipscomb believed that human governments existed because man was unable to govern himself under the law of Christ.
So…on pacifisim. While I’m not sure I would take a completely pacifict position, especially when it comes to protecting my family, I think I can say that Jesus was serious when he taught “turn the other cheek,” and I don’t think he was alluding to just verbal insults.
And as far as religous nationalism…. it is nothing less than idolatry. While we live here in the United States and should be thankful to God that we have it easy, we should not assume that America has a special place in the heart of God. The thought that the United States is the new Israel is wrong. To view the United States as anything other than the Babylon, Assyria, or Rome that it is is to fool oneself and elevate the temporal state to a place that it doesn’t belong.
But, this is a mistake that has been made since Constantine. Its nothing new. But we as Christians must see it for what it is.
Bobby and John Mark’s book helps us do just that. Get a copy, and read it. If you read any book besides the bible this year, this should be the one.
-Clarke
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August 11th, 2006 at 18:17
Interesting thoughts.
Given my roots in a family of churches that started churches in hundreds of countries over the past 20 years, I have a clear distinction in my mind between American patriotism and Christianity. I don’t see the USA as having moral rights beyond any other country. I would like to see peace between my country and any other country, especially those in which I have brothers and sisters in Christ. But I wouldn’t classify myself as a pacifist, at least in the extreme sense of the word.
I believe God put governments in place to punish those who do wrong, and that those governments do not bear the sword in vain (Rom 13:4). That is a God-ordained use of force, apparently including capital punishment (after all, what is a sword for?) And while I recognize that Jesus called us to turn the other cheek, he also told his disciples to sell their coat if necessary to purchase a sword (Luke 22:36). The only reason I can imagine for him saying that is that they might need to defend themselves. So it seems to me that self defense is also authorized, at least in some context.
Under OT law there was certainly no concept of pacifism. It was permissible to use lethal force to defend one’s home at night (Ex 22:2). And there were numerous circumstances under which the Israelites were commanded to impose a death sentence. So the same two uses of force seem to have been authorized under both covenants.
Taken together with the NT passages mentioned previously, I think the principles in the OT law clarify what is the appropriate role for force in the Christian era. The law was given to us to teach us what is sin (Rom 3:20, Rom 7:7). There still remains a proper way to use the law (1 Tim 1:8). Since I see God-ordained teachings in the NT indicating that the same appropriate uses of force remain (Rom 13:4, Luke 22:36), I believe we have the right (and perhaps the responsibility) to protect our families. And I believe governments are authorized by God to enforce the law with force, including even capital punishment.
August 12th, 2006 at 7:07
Alan given time and space I can explain every place you quoted as benig in favor of violence as misrepresented.but lets take Luke 22:36, as we notice Jesus said everyone get a sword, but when he found they already had two he said that is enought (to make his point) what was the point? if we go on to vs: 49,50,51 we discover the purpose of the sword (look people we could fight if we so desired we are armed) but we choose not to fight. He even healed the one enemy that was harmed. when we read just the text that we choose we can make Jesus say about anything.
August 13th, 2006 at 16:14
C.S Lewis may change your mind yet again.
August 14th, 2006 at 10:32
Hi Laymond,
I don’t claim to have the definitive answer on this subject. I respect the views of those who disagree with me. But the consistency between the OT and the NT carries a lot of weight IMO. Should I stand by and allow an attacker to injure or kill a member of my family, if I had the power to prevent it? I don’t see any scripture telling me I should allow that to happen.
As for the incident in Gethsemane… in the parallel account in Matt 27, Jesus goes on to explain why: “But how then shall the scriptures be fulfilled?” He said nothing of pacifism.
We are clearly taught not to seek revenge, in many places. I think that is the point of Matt 5:39–see also Rom 12:17-21. What I am talking about is not revenge, but prevention and deterrent.
Again I don’t claim to have the definitive answer on this. I know there are honest and well-studied Christians who see this differently from me. But I havent’ come to this belief without prayer and study of the scriptures, and this is where I am at this point in time.
Alan
August 27th, 2006 at 7:28
I really appreciate the way you have wrestled with Kingdom Come.
If it is ok with you I am going to link your reaction to the book on my blog.
Shalom,
Bobby Valentine
August 27th, 2006 at 21:17
Bobby:
You are more than welcome to do that.
-Clarke
September 11th, 2006 at 11:38
Clarke,
I’m a little late on this post, sorry (slow reader). I really enjoyed the book and it has inspired me to be more faithful with God’s personal, intimate involvement in my life and the life of others. Here is my review. Thanks for keeping up clarkecomments, it is a breath of fresh air.
Sincerely,
Phil
September 12th, 2006 at 10:48
Phil,
I read your reaction to KC on your website. I appreciate the way you have interacted with the book. Feel free to come by my blog and join the dialogue too.
I tried to leave a comment on your blog but was not able to do so.
Shalom,
Bobby Valentine