Hello all:
My wife relayed a funny/sad story to me tonight.
Her best friend’s boyfriend goes to a non-denominational community church of some sort, and he has decided to be baptized.
He’s been waiting for three months.
The church he belongs to makes you sign up on a waiting list to be baptized. They do not want to fill the baptistry each Sunday, so they only baptize people twice per month, and when they do, they only baptize a couple of people each time.
So, he’s waiting. Sara told him that he could come to our church and be baptized right away, but he wants to be baptized in front of his congregation.
Since they believe that baptism isn’t necessary, its not really that important and so they don’t believe it matters when you are baptized. The one reedeming (I think…) thing to this story is that it sounds like they baptize more people per year than we do, but they are a large church which is constantly growing.
Sara was told by her friend’s dad that, “it doesn’t matter when you are baptized since you are saved when you start believing.” She didn’t really know what to say to him and didn’t want to get into an agrument so she stayed quiet.
I think we need to rethink our logical arguments on baptism and find one that works today. It drives me nuts to be listening to the local Christian music station and hear someone talk about “inviting Jesus into your heart to be saved.” Its such an obvious error, we’ve got to find a better way to communicate the importance and necessity of baptism.
-Clarke
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August 9th, 2006 at 2:33
Clarke,
Many times, I have found the “baptism is not necessary” thinking a result of flawed theology or unrepentant sin and not the issue of immersion for the forgiveness of sins. i.e. “God is all love and will not punish”, “God will forgive and grace covers all, even if I do not repent.” “God will not allow me to withdraw myself from my salvation” (Once saved, always saved), etc… These statements indicate an unbalanced (untrue) perception of God. If the person is willing to accept the Bible as the unerring word of God and repent they (usually) will see the importance of baptism.
Here is a little essay on the history of the “Sinner’s Prayer” which you may find helpful. Until the 1800’s in the United States, baptism (infant or otherwise) was still considered connected with salvation. (Not that I agree with infant baptism, but you get my point.) The disconnect between salvation and baptism is a recent (150 years) development and was localized to the U.S. at first.
Sincerely,
Phil Spadaro
August 9th, 2006 at 4:46
One thing I’ve noticed, Clarke, is that Churches of Christ aren’t as quick to baptize as when I was a kid. I remember that we wanted to get you under the water before you got hit by a train or fell dead of a heart attack. Now, we’ll tell people on Sunday morning to come back for a baptism that night. Or teens will tell friends and relatives on Monday or Tuesday that they’re going to be baptized Wednesday night.
August 9th, 2006 at 5:00
Clarke-
Something interesting is that our church here in Louisville had a new baptisry installed this time last year. The guy who installed it told me that the people who manufactured the baptistry were from the Churches of Christ and so the baptistry only had a one-year warranty for Churches of Christ. He said that any other church group would receive about a 10-year warranty but we only get a one year warranty because we keep our baptistries full every week and no one else does.
August 9th, 2006 at 5:47
Clarke,
I think you might be interested to see how things might be changing in Baptist churches at least. Over the past several months I have heard many of my Baptist friends call for a rethinking of baptism as it relates to the conversion experience.
We in Christianity have had a difficult time with baptism, since it is a physical act, yet we say that salvation is by faith. We saying that baptism is an act of faith as well. Well, if rasing your hand and saying a “sinner’s prayer” is an act of faith, then so is baptism. The only difference is, one is Biblical and the other is not.
Check out this article by Ray Van Neste. He is a local Baptist minister here in Jackson and a professor at Union University.
http://rvanneste.blogspot.com/2005/12/baptism-why-do-we-not-value-it-more.html
August 9th, 2006 at 6:26
I believe it to be quite sad what many churches are teaching today, not only departing (what I believe) sound theology but church history. Yes, early Christians argued on mode of baptism but I do not believe anybody downplayed the role of baptism in the church. Too me, this problem all started with the early protesters in the reformation and continues today with the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. 30,000 plus denominations claiming to be led to their current doctrinal stances by the Holy Spirit.
August 9th, 2006 at 6:58
Clarke,
Here’s another Baptist article that addresses this issue.
http://sbts.edu/resources/publications/sbjt/1998/1998Spring2.pdf
August 9th, 2006 at 11:21
“See, here is water! What prevents me from being baptized?” - Ethiopian Eunich
August 9th, 2006 at 14:48
People are always waiting on the authorities (ie: “Have the authorities agreed”). No one seems all that rushed to listen to Jesus Christ. Sad. Someone talk to him and show him a lake, pond, pool or baptistry which has no waiting line.
August 9th, 2006 at 15:38
Hey Clarke,
Contrast your story with my experience last Sunday. I met a guy named Cameron, whom I’ve seen exactly one time before. Homeless, 29, and searching for God, after about a half hour of looking at scripture he says to me, “wow, I guess I need to be baptized RIGHT NOW.”
BTW:
I always tell people to rethink who does the baptizing. Ref Colossians 2. (HINT: It’s God
check out Cameron’s full story via my blog:
http://basicorlando.blogspot.com/2006/08/it-was-beautiful-day.html
Thanks!
GB HOYT
August 10th, 2006 at 3:54
Interesting topic. I too have heard of Baptists and others rethinking their traditional minimization of the importance of baptism. I am hopeful that the common ground on this important topic will continue to grow.
Alan
August 11th, 2006 at 7:35
Clarke,
One thing I have found to agree on with most people who questioned the importance of baptism and where I start is to show in the Bible Where water Baptism was not separated from Conversion. And explain to be biblical is to keep them together. That is a place of agreement to start more than what happens when it is done.
August 11th, 2006 at 8:42
It’s one thing if a church believes in adult, immersive baptism but not for salvation. In that case, what’s the rush?
The flip side can be true as well, rushing folks into the baptistery when they aren’t ready. In Luke 3 when John is baptizing, crowds come to get baptized. He challenges them, asking why they are there, telling them to produce some fruit in keeping with what they were claiming to do.
Certainly his baptism is a different animal, not being for salvation, but if he would not baptize some until he saw some evidence (fruit) of their intent, why shouldn’t we? Jesus also cautions us to count the cost in Luke 14, we would do potential converts a disservice if we didn’t call them to the same.
August 13th, 2006 at 20:13
Wow! There are some excellent points and comments here. Thank you also for the links - I look forward to looking at those as well.
I was just studying on Baptism myself the other day. Being a member of a Baptist church, and realizing they view it as a ’show of faith’ and not playing a role in salvation (generalizing I realize, as each individual church may have varying beliefs/views)… I decided this was something I should know for sure about.
My own personal conclusion to this study was that it is very important to be baptized, specifically “in the name of Jesus”, and to receive the Holy Spirt (or baptism of the Holy Ghost). According to the Scripture, this is what brings us into unity with the Body of Christ, and how we enter the kingdom of God.
You can see my notes on that study here: Water Baptism if interested.
August 14th, 2006 at 15:02
LynneAnne,
Thats great that you are studying the subject, you will see thru scripture study and early church history, that baptism played a role in ones walk of faith, and never (at least that I am aware of) did baptism mean to be a mere symbol of an inward change. Those who hold to the “faith alone” doctrine (that is not very old) have no choice but to make baptism a symbol. I am speaking as one who used to be in the churches of Christ but still hold to this view that most early Christians/Catholics held…and still do
September 5th, 2006 at 9:13
Baptism is essential for one who wants to follow Christ. However, my experience has been that baptism is often over emphasized by some folks in Restoration Movement churches.
Is the convert assured of his or her salvation because of the faitfulness of God to do what He promised, wholly on the merits of Jesus, or because he or she has been baptised?
I fear that many people have been converted to the church but not to Christ. Baptism is not the gospel, it is not a part of the gospel, it is a part of the response to the gospel. In most coC teaching to “obey the gospel” is simply to be baptised. Where does the Bible teach that?
If first, a sinner does not “obey with the heart” baptism is usless. The prerequsite for water baptism in the first century and today is “If you believe with all your heart you may”.
It is with the heart that we “believe unto righteousness”. Baptism is an act of submission in view of the facts about Jesus and the gospel. Sans saving faith, baptism is but another evidence of self righteousness.
Grace and Peace,
Royce Ogle
November 1st, 2006 at 6:16
This has been a good discussion. On the subject of baptism, my wife found this video yesterday. Whether or not you believe baptism is necessary, I hope this never happens to me:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q31nA6LCMxE
November 9th, 2006 at 6:58
Have enjoyed rummaging through your posts. I put this one up this week:
http://lookinferlearnin.wordpress.com/2006/11/08/baptism-yielding-to-the-will-of-god/
March 31st, 2007 at 16:01
Royce Ogle Says: “baptism is but another evidence of self righteousness.”
Ridiculous hogwash! Even Luther (who supposedly taught justification by faith alone) disagrees with your nonsense. In his commentary on Galatians 3:27 Martin Luther says
“The garment of Adam must come off like soiled clothes. Of course, it is not as simple as changing one’s clothes. But God makes it simple. He clothes us with the righteousness of Christ by means of Baptism, as the Apostle says in this verse: ‘As many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.’ With this change of garments a new birth, a new life stirs in us. New affections toward God spring up in the heart. New determinations affect our will. All this is to put on Christ according to the Gospel. Needless to say, when we have put on the robe of the righteousness of Christ we must not forget to put on also the mantle of the imitation of Christ.”
March 31st, 2007 at 16:05
Again it was said “Sans saving faith, baptism is but another evidence of self righteousness.”
Now to clarify, I suppose “Sans” means “without.” Without saving faith baptism is nothing, one might say, and that is true, YET at the same time, without baptism there is no saving faith. Only a faith that prompts obedience to Peter’s command in Acts 2:38 “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit” is a saving faith. A faith that stops short of that is a dead faith.